This reminds me as a kid going from WRG6 to WRG7 tabletop. In WRG6, you'd get physical casualties and take off models, then in WRG7 there was a fatigue system. The whole unit would continue to fight at full strength (minus minor fatigue penalty) until it hit 15 fatigue at which point it would completely disappear as soon as it got pushed back. I never liked it. It just doesn't make any sense. People can die from a single wound. The system doesn't replicate that simple fact. What's wrong with the Shogun 2 system? Why do they keep trying to "fix" stuff which isn't broken.

You OK?
It's just a flesh wound? How about you?
Yeah, just a flesh wound.
Me too! And me! Yep, just a flesh wound over here. Only a scratch here. I've had worse.

Have you played any Shogun 2?

The healthbar system adds horrible inconsistency to battles with basically nothing dying for a few minutes before the pace suddenly picks up. This also comes with the problem of a unit's strength not reducing as more damage is taken. A unit could have 60% HP yet 90% of the men could still be alive- therefore poorly reflecting the real remaining health of a unit. This isn't a battle, it's chipping away at magic healthbars.

Contrast this with Shogun 2 and before; Units take damage consistently and they lose strength in a way that reflects how damaged they actually are. This also makes engagements more easily predictable at a glace so you can make much better decisions.

Charges also become a joke, especially against stronger units. In Rome 2 which you seem to praise highly, a full on flanking/rear cavalry charge onto a stronger unit can kill absolutely no one- that should not happen. Light cavalry can charge into the flanks of katana samurai, hell even yari samurai which are their direct counter, and still be devastating. Total War is all about winning a battle with weaker units and using what you can to deny enemy advantages and exploit your own.

Contrast this with Shogun 2 and before; Units take damage consistently and they lose strength in a way that reflects how damaged they actually are. This also makes engagements more easily predictable at a glace so you can make much better decisions.

Charge pullthroughs and disengagements are also a problem. In older games, retreating from combat mid combat or pulling through an engagement will cost you a lot as your men are attacked in the back. It can easily get them routed if you aren't careful.

There are just so many problems with this untenable system, I really don't know what CA were thinking while adding them or continuing to have them in every subsequent game.

Messaggio originale di geoffles:

This reminds me as a kid going from WRG6 to WRG7 tabletop. In WRG6, you'd get physical casualties and take off models, then in WRG7 there was a fatigue system. The whole unit would continue to fight at full strength (minus minor fatigue penalty) until it hit 15 fatigue at which point it would completely disappear as soon as it got pushed back. I never liked it. It just doesn't make any sense. People can die from a single wound. The system doesn't replicate that simple fact. What's wrong with the Shogun 2 system? Why do they keep trying to "fix" stuff which isn't broken.

You OK?
It's just a flesh wound? How about you?
Yeah, just a flesh wound.
Me too! And me! Yep, just a flesh wound over here. Only a scratch here. I've had worse.

Oh, quit trying to make it sound as if everything in these games will always be a 1 to 1 replica of real life.

You're just sounding like that one kid who gets super mad when you can't one shot an enemy's elite unit or whatever.


One of the things I hate is how CA brought in that whole stupid "critical hit" thing in Thrones, where units would seemingly take losses from the slightest ranged damage and such.

Because guess what?

Not all archers and such were Robin Hood or whatever who could consistently hit the eye holes in a helmet. So armored units shouldn't just be dropping dead from a single volley.

And the whole health bar thing is just expanding what was done before so that that sort of nonsense doesn't happen nearly as often.

And you leave out the fact that there are different types of weapons and such throughout the different TW games, so they can't just leave it all the same because some people don't think about such things and choose to whine about it.

Messaggio originale di InquisitiveAnt:

No offense dude, but you sound like that kid who gets super mad that you can't just cheese a part of a game and one shot the enemy's elite armored unit or whatever.

Like I said on the mod page itself, I've played a lot of Rome 2 and it was actually consistent, despite what you claim. And while there is some cheese here and there, it's hardly the health bar's fault.

Seriously, go hop on Rome 2 with no mods and take a look at the units in custom battles, and you'll clearly see that the health of units doesn't fluctuate as much as you claim it does.

Once in melee, even my elite units never felt like they were invincible, but they did feel like powerful elite units, and that's the point of them.

If CA just keeps the health of most units the same or at least in the same area, then there's no problem.

I honestly think that some people will just try to come up with any excuse to hate on the Warhammer games, or try to somehow link them to all the problems of the world or something.

What are you on about? I never said anything about 'cheesing.'
As for consistency, I mean the pace of the battles not the number of hit points each unit has.
I have nearly 70 hours in Rome 2- I know how it works and I've given it a chance.

Messaggio originale di InquisitiveAnt:

What are you on about? I never said anything about 'cheesing.'
As for consistency, I mean the pace of the battles not the number of hit points each unit has.
I have nearly 70 hours in Rome 2- I know how it works and I've given it a chance.

Well, I'm more so talking about and calling out how you're acting like the whole health bar thing somehow ruins the battles because units can't just be wiped out with a single volley of arrows or whatever.

And 70 Hours? That's cute.

I have nearly 1,500 hours in Rome 2, most of the in MP battles, so I know it far better than you do.

I never once felt like my elite units were invincible, certainly not from their health alone. They were tough, but much of that came from their armor and such stats.

I honestly think that people are complaining about something that isn't even a real problem when you stop and think about it.

If you personally like healthbars, then this mod just isn't for you and that's perfectly fine- I'm not forcing you to use it lmao

And anyway, you haven't provided any rebuttals to my problems that I listed above. Again, that's fine you don't need to use this mod if you like the HP system. It's mostly for people like me who can appreciate games like Attila but want to have a similar experience to Shogun 2

Messaggio originale di InquisitiveAnt:

If you personally like healthbars, then this mod just isn't for you and that's perfectly fine- I'm not forcing you to use it lmao

And anyway, you haven't provided any rebuttals to my problems that I listed above. Again, that's fine you don't need to use this mod if you like the HP system. It's mostly for people like me who can appreciate games like Attila but want to have a similar experience to Shogun 2

Well, this mod is just the latest time I've seen someone talk as if the HP system is ruining the TW battles and all, as if it's the ONLY thing that's factored in, which IS just utterly ridiculous to say the least.

The problem with your whole argument is exactly what I just said.

You guys act as if the HP system is the only thing that factors into the battles when it's clearly not.

Units can't just be wiped out by a stiff breeze? Oh no, the horror!

The HP system worked just fine in Rome 2, and can work in other TW games.

Complaining about it just ridiculous to say the least.

It's not the only problem with the newer total war games- far from it but it's the worst in my opinion due to the reasons I have listed.

Formations going from actual formations to flat stat bonuses are another big issue that's also impossible to mod out

Messaggio originale di InquisitiveAnt:

It's not the only problem with the newer total war games- far from it but it's the worst in my opinion due to the reasons I have listed.

Formations going from actual formations to flat stat bonuses are another big issue that's also impossible to mod out

And there you go, just ignoring what I explained.

Sorry, but you're just wrong, simple as that.

And I will agree that formations could use some work, but that's hardly the HP system's fault.

And should formations not give any bonuses at all? That would be absurd.


No offense, but you come off and sound like some new guy trying to talk to many of us TW veterans as if none of us know that things have changed over the years and only try to talk about the changes as if they're nothing but bad.

As someone who's actually played the TW games since Rome 1, I would say that I am well aware of the changes that have taken place over the years and that not all of them have been as terrible as you think they are.

In fact, I would point out that not all the Medieval 2 fanboys and such are correct when they tell you that things were "better" back in the day either. And I would also say that while not everything added to the TW games have been done perfectly, there's objectively more good than actual bad.

I never blamed the HP system for the decline of formations... I said that I personally think the HP system is the biggest problem with modern total war and simply mentioned another issue I have with the games which is the spreadsheet formations. Two completely separate things; both big issues

I've played Total War for 5 years, probably not as long as you but it's enough to know what I'm talking about. We just have different opinions and that's fine. This is just for people who have a similar sentiment to me. I'm not rallying an army against people who like games that come after Shogun 2 💀

Messaggio originale di InquisitiveAnt:

I never blamed the HP system for the decline of formations... I said that I personally think the HP system is the biggest problem with modern total war and simply mentioned another issue I have with the games which is the spreadsheet formations. Two completely separate things; both big issues

I've played Total War for 5 years, probably not as long as you but it's enough to know what I'm talking about. We just have different opinions and that's fine. This is just for people who have a similar sentiment to me. I'm not rallying an army against people who like games that come after Shogun 2 💀

Well, I hate to break it to you, but it's not and you don't fully know what you're talking about.

1. I said the HP system was not the cause of the formations problem.
2. The HP system isn't the biggest issue with the TW game.

As someone's who's actually been around these games for a good while, I can say that the problem with your argument is in the fact that you're trying to talk as if the HP system is somehow the only stat that exists or matters, when it's not.

I mean, you make it sound like you'd be utterly shocked when a single volley of arrows doesn't wipe out half a unit's worth of men who are wearing armor and carrying heavy shields.

The HP system was added in to simply not have it be so ridiculously easy for things such as elite infantry or whatever not to die to a strong breeze.

And to further prove my point, all you have to do is look at what happens when lightly armored units in Rome 2, such as the Naked Warriors, are exposed to any kind of missile fire and they die pretty damn quickly, despite having a health bar.

Messaggio originale di InquisitiveAnt:

Have you played any Shogun 2?

If you really think this is an argument, I must retort: Have you?

If you had, then you'd know that per model HP as it is in R2/Attila existed back in S2, despite not being used on anything other than on generals. You'd also know that CA actually bothering to use per model HP came with a whole host of other changes; melee calculations, armor calculations, rule changes for missile hits, and how unit stats relate to the underlying calculations changed significantly from S2 to R2.

All that is to say that, as hard as you try, you will not successfully recreate S2's combat, save for the utter ridiculousness that is ranged fire in S2. Judging by the comments on the mod, you've definitely replicated that unfortunate aspect of S2, so bravo - it's not like slingers and crossbows weren't already busted.

None of this is to say Shogun 2 is bad. On the contrary, S2 is rightfully beloved. But thinking you can properly recreate S2 or - God forbid - R1 is pretty strong as hubris goes.

Messaggio originale di Commisar Jon ♥♥♥♥♥♥:

Messaggio originale di InquisitiveAnt:

Have you played any Shogun 2?

If you really think this is an argument, I must retort: Have you?

If you had, then you'd know that per model HP as it is in R2/Attila existed back in S2, despite not being used on anything other than on generals. You'd also know that CA actually bothering to use per model HP came with a whole host of other changes; melee calculations, armor calculations, rule changes for missile hits, and how unit stats relate to the underlying calculations changed significantly from S2 to R2.

All that is to say that, as hard as you try, you will not successfully recreate S2's combat, save for the utter ridiculousness that is ranged fire in S2. Judging by the comments on the mod, you've definitely replicated that unfortunate aspect of S2, so bravo - it's not like slingers and crossbows weren't already busted.

None of this is to say Shogun 2 is bad. On the contrary, S2 is rightfully beloved. But thinking you can properly recreate S2 or - God forbid - R1 is pretty strong as hubris goes.

I'm not stupid; I know it's impossible to recreate those two great games in Attila but I can get it as close as is within my ability. I also know Shogun 2 had multiple hit points for generals and heroes but that's not even close to a full health bar for every unit

Messaggio originale di InquisitiveAnt:

I'm not stupid; I know it's impossible to recreate those two great games in Attila but I can get it as close as is within my ability. I also know Shogun 2 had multiple hit points for generals and heroes but that's not even close to a full health bar for every unit

No offense, but he does make a good point.

It wasn't really all that different back in Rome 2 compared to Shogun 2, it was just expanded, that's all.

But I'll give you an example of how the whole HP system isn't nearly as bad as you think.


Let's say the next TW games announced in an Empire 2.

Now let's say they keep most infantry health at 50 health per man.

I would say that if they have to put a number to the missile damage of the ranged weapons, I would say that bows should have 35 to 40 missile damage, while guns have a whopping 120.

Now you have also consider that not too many troops in the late 1600s through the 1700s wore a ton of armor. So I would think that most things like line infantry would would only have like 10 or 15 armor at most.

Even if you split that 120 in half, with 60 BD and 60 AP, the fact that such units don't have tons of armor would make that 50 or even 60 health look like that much.