Stellaris

Stellaris

Sensible Late Game Techs
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Flamgino  [kehittäjä] 18.6.2022 klo 14.36
The Knids
Feedback about the Knids doesn't have to go here. I'll also see updates in other threads. But this is the thread that establishes what the Knids are supposed to be achieving, and it will hopefully guide feedback a bit.

They're Not Really a Crisis
The Knids are meant to be challenging and should continue to be a bit of a headache as long as they're around, but I tried to create a few ways of "solving" them that depend on your empire type. You can befriend them - which mostly involves giving them food or setting up certain arrangements with them - or you can destroy them. There are rewards built in for either.

They get a world destroyer, but their ships don't have apocalypse bombard. That's because if they kill off the whole galaxy, there'll be no one left to steal food from. If the chips are down and things look bad, you can typically surrender to their war goal and you'll be on the hook for food supplies for ten years, but won't be bullied by them in that time.

The Mechanics

The Knids should spawn in only 20% of the games you play, and will only spawn in games that have been started since they were introduced.

After the Knids spawn, they'll get 0.5% stronger in fleet health and fire rate every year, provided they get food from somewhere. There's actually a lot of ways for them to get food, so it's typical they won't go hungry very often. However, if for some reason nobody in the galaxy can be robbed or persuaded, they'll get 1% weaker each year they don't eat.

Every year, if they haven't been pacified somehow, they'll choose a random empire and threaten them for food, and the food demands will go up each year. If you've been cooperative with the Knids in the past, you can politely decline and they won't attack you, but if they're going to attack you, they make it very clear and tell you so in RED LETTERS.

They spawn a new fleet regularly every two years, but won't spawn more than roughly five fleets. Granted, the fleets are fairly strong, so it's an intimidating navy depending on how militaristic you are. If you're playing a pacifist, you can actually negotiate an ongoing peace for food deal outright by contacting the Knids and setting that up - they're really not in it for the murder, they just want food. Other empire types can hold them off other ways. If you trade food to them for resources, they'll also leave the whole galaxy alone for the year.

You will get something out of any of these deals you set up. Typically a unity buff, because the deal available to you is related specifically to your nation's ethics or civics.

Homicidal empires do not have a lot of coexistence options with the Knids, and Xenophobes don't do much with them either, but do get a little extra bonus if you force the Knids into a surrender during war.

The Ideal

What I'm going for is a sort of soft, mid-game "concern". Something that appears suddenly and shakes up the galaxy a bit. Causes wars, a bit of damage, makes some minor asks of your economy, but that hopefully you're also happy to see appear because you get a variety of bonuses for dealing with them. Even if you get in a war with them, you can get some unique bonuses by researching any fleets you manage to destroy, and of course if you kill them, you get a relic.

A bit of an "it is what you make of it" challenge. If your borders are strong and you just hold your line, you wind up getting a settlement from the Knids, paid in alloys and energy, which means even if you can't reach where the Knids are, you can still reap some solid benefits from a Knid war.

This isn't about showcasing any particular design concept related to the mod. They won't terraform planets into Unseen Worlds or anything like that. The star bases do use Wayfarers but that's mainly so they can shoot back if YOU use Wayfarers. The main fleets have your basic weapons... well, basically. The bottom line is, they're their own thing, but primarily as a way of getting some unique stuff into the hands of the player.

Feel free to comment or hate on them below.
Viimeisin muokkaaja on Flamgino; 20.6.2022 klo 20.39
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- Knid "cleared" systems can't be surveyed since there are still planets with pops in those systems. Maybe don't destroy the starbase until after the planets are ejected?

- Found a weird bug where my science ship was scanning a planet while it was getting "ejected", and the game crashed-to-desktop during the "system surveyed" announcement.
Flamgino  [kehittäjä] 3.12.2022 klo 19.07 
doctornull lähetti viestin:
- Knid "cleared" systems can't be surveyed since there are still planets with pops in those systems. Maybe don't destroy the starbase until after the planets are ejected?

- Found a weird bug where my science ship was scanning a planet while it was getting "ejected", and the game crashed-to-desktop during the "system surveyed" announcement.

Thanks. It's really hard to test these guys on my own, so stuff like this really helps.

I think the science vessel crash is because the planet was coded to be outright removed from play. That's how the Planet Cracker handles habitats - just deletes them from the galaxy entirely - but maybe it's unexpected for a non-artificial world. I'll try changing it so a world that gets ejected is transformed into a tiny black hole that you can build a research station over, and maybe that'll solve it.

Habitats are still programmed to be removed from the game, but that's identical to the Planet Cracker code so hopefully that's okay.
I think it's something like the game expects to run a function on the final celestial object scanned -- e.g. for the +10% anomaly features -- and then when the scan completes, there's no celestial object to assign the anomaly or other callback. If my guess is accurate, then your fix will probably work.

What's the intent with claiming systems where the starbase has been Knid-killed? Right now they just sit there, getting scanned again and again, but any inhabited planet can't be successfully scanned for some reason so the system never gets registered as fully surveyed until the Knid-lossos kicks the planet(s) out.
Flamgino  [kehittäjä] 4.12.2022 klo 8.00 
doctornull lähetti viestin:
I think it's something like the game expects to run a function on the final celestial object scanned -- e.g. for the +10% anomaly features -- and then when the scan completes, there's no celestial object to assign the anomaly or other callback. If my guess is accurate, then your fix will probably work.

What's the intent with claiming systems where the starbase has been Knid-killed? Right now they just sit there, getting scanned again and again, but any inhabited planet can't be successfully scanned for some reason so the system never gets registered as fully surveyed until the Knid-lossos kicks the planet(s) out.

It's not really intended. The Knids destroy star bases like the Khan or an end game crisis, and that's because they're mostly meant to do damage and cause disruption until there's a surrender, which results in monthly food payments to them. They do wheel the planet pusher in there, but that's just escalating the stakes - a human could hit the surrender button before the weapon goes off and then pay the food instead of losing the planet.

My idea was that the Knids would expand opportunistically if they created some space for themselves by destroying starbases, but that unlike the Khan or the end game crises, they shouldn't be a full existential crisis to the galaxy. They aren't really taking planets, and when you do lose planets, it's from the methodical, one-at a time process of a planet killer which the Knids can't use if they can't defend it. They don't even have apocalypse bombard, and I'd like to imagine that when the Knids push a planet into another 4D plane, there's a separate coordinated raiding party on the other side that rescues some of the populace (though granted to work them as slaves) and as much food as they can grab.

In practice, this creates a situation where the Knids will destroy a starbases, leaving the system technically ownerless, but they don't take or destroy any planets right away. Normally when the Unbidden do this, they'll either kill the planet or wander off, and if they leave, the starbase rebuilds. You can't send in science ships while the Unbidden are there, because the Unbidden are hostile. Same goes for the Khan, where even if you're a Khan satrapy, his enemies are hostile to you and the Khan usually conquers those planets with armies shortly after he makes them vulnerable.

The Knids, on the other hand, just ignore you and blockade the system until they get around to launching the planet cracker. That gives your science vessels a chance to survey the system, and then run into the issue of surveying an inhabited planet which is broadcasting a really interesting TV program that keeps your scientist indefinitely occupied. I guess he's watching every season of Blorg Seinfeld.
Viimeisin muokkaaja on Flamgino; 4.12.2022 klo 8.00
I understand the idea behind the Knid, but I do have one issue. While it is the case that you don't end up fighting them unless you opt in to that path, the AI is not smart enough to understand that and due to being in federations or having vassals, it's very easy to end up dragged into wars with them even though you're trying to take the peaceful path.

Is there a way to prevent this behaviour, or disable the Knid from spawning? It's very disruptive when a weak federation member starts swinging punches without needing to go through the federation war system and dragging us all in to a slugging match with the knid.
Flamgino  [kehittäjä] 9.4.2023 klo 18.50 
MechaMarshmallow lähetti viestin:
I understand the idea behind the Knid, but I do have one issue. While it is the case that you don't end up fighting them unless you opt in to that path, the AI is not smart enough to understand that and due to being in federations or having vassals, it's very easy to end up dragged into wars with them even though you're trying to take the peaceful path.

Is there a way to prevent this behaviour, or disable the Knid from spawning? It's very disruptive when a weak federation member starts swinging punches without needing to go through the federation war system and dragging us all in to a slugging match with the knid.

I did an update so the Knids will leave AI alone if they're vassalized or in a federation. It will have the side-effect of making the player more likely to be confronted with a Knid shakedown request since the Knids have fewer potential targets to draw from, but at least if they're confronting you, you'll have influence over it.
Sounds great, thanks!
Arphar 18.12.2023 klo 15.51 
Hello,
I was playing around in observer mode, seeing what the knids were up to, and it seemed that despite not gaining any food they were not getting the debuffs at the end of each year. To be exact, I did not see a decrease in their ship's modifier's year after year of looking at them. Furthermore, the "Famine" modifier did not show any maluses for which I believe it should have been placed had there been any.
In fact, their fleets seemed to be growing stronger at the normal pace at about 0.5% per year without meeting their food quotas. To be more clear, such an increase was not recorded in the "Knid Fleet Innovations" modifier and simply seemed to apply onto their ships.

Perhaps it may be an issue on my end, although I see no reason why that would be.

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I have found the error that did not apply the malus to knids.
In slgt_knid.3104 you are putting slgt_update_knid_debuffs = yes inside of the if statement, which is causing issues.
Arphar 18.12.2023 klo 15.59 
I also wished to say something about knid behavior:
- They struggle on closing wars against smaller enemies where they can only bombard from orbit to get warscore. This also has the side effect of having the knids fleet stuck on bombardment duty.
-> As such consider adding some way for them to be able to make use of the new Orbital Surrender feature of possible, as I do not believe they want ground armies.
- They do not use the Colossus in the Total wars.
- AIs are very prone to attempt total war against the knids despite having absolutely no chance at winning (I suppose it has something to do with poisoning the food?)

Also you should consider adding a charge up time for the knid's colossus weapon, since it doesn't even take a day to fire.
Viimeisin muokkaaja on Arphar; 18.12.2023 klo 16.12
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