Crusader Kings III

Crusader Kings III

When the World Stopped Making Sense
Historical Suggestions
I hope it is ok to open this thread, discussing on the main page is both limited to 1000 characters per post and would be harder to find among other posts.

I will mostly cover Germanic peoples that were connected to Romans since you have done a far better job than I had with Romans.
Last edited by Abaçı; 8 May @ 7:22am
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Abaçı 7 May @ 3:44pm 
Unless I missed something, all I have on the Amals. These are based on what the vanilla lacks so apoligies for the ones you have already added.

- Theoderic the Great's mother: She was still alive in 476, she possibly died c. 500 with a letter dated to 493-496 written to her by Pope Gelasius. Her name at this date should also not be Eusebia(after the empress) as her baptism as a Chalcedonian must have happened after Theoderic conquered Italy.

- Theoderic Strabo's family: His father's name may not have been Triarius with Triarius instead kind of a surname when entering Roman service so an alternative for naming the family. Strabo had two brothers whose names are not known, his son Recitach murdered his uncles sometime after the death of his father. Recitach (or perhaps his father Theoderic Strabo but Recitach is more likely) was a cousin of Theoderic the Great. PLRE postulates this relationship by making Sigilda the paternal aunt of Theoderic the Great. One of the wives of Aspar was either the sister or aunt of Theoderic Strabo.

- Gesimund, either one person or two seperate persons. He is the son of Hunimund the Elder( not Hunimund the younger who is son of Ermanaric) and if there is a second one he is an Amal son-in-arms and not an Amal himself.

- Vadamerca, daughter or more likely granddaughter of Winithar who was made a wife of Balamber after defeating Winithar. she is also claimed as mother of Uldın/Uldız though no certainty on this.

- Pelagia: She was of "barbarian royal family", I've seen two people given as possible father, one is Berimund of the Amals and the other is Alaric of the Balthes

- Amal princess Anicius Maximus married: Her exact parentage is not known, Herwig Wolfram shows her as a daughter of Theoderic in his stemma, some other source I can't remember, proposes that she was a descendant of Theodahad since it was him who arranged the marriage and suggests that she was more likely to be a granddaughter than a daughter due to his age. Neither source has any information on her connection to the family but the latter suggestion makes more sense. Theodahad had two sons, one whose name is not known and Theodigisel. He also had a daughter who is identified as Amalafrida Theodanantha a member of the Amals who around 536 was mourning the death of both a son who died in childhood and her father. Her husband is a Patrician of Ostrogothic origin named Ebremuth or Ebremund.

- Theoderic the Great had a sister, who died around the time he was marching on Durazzo(479?). Her name is not known and it seems I haven't noted what her age would roughly be but I guess she was much younger than her siblings as I apparently made her an infant.

- One source I encountered gave Amalafrida two children with her marriage to Thrasamund, a daughter Amfleda and a son Fridamal. Can't remember the source

- Tuluin an Ostrogothic nobleman who married a daughter of Theoderic the Great and had a son.
This Tuluin is either a member of the Amal dynasty himself or there is a second, seperate Tuluin.

- Theodagunda, an Ostrogothic noblewoman mentioned in 510 and is thought to be a member of the Amals

- Giso, cousin of Theoderic the Great. She married Feletheus of the Rugii and had a son, Frideric, who died in battle in 493

- Vithimiris, king of the Greuthingi c. 375, he had a son Videric and his father was Eidulf, son of Aichulf

- Sarus, brother of Sigeric the Amal king of the Visigoths

- T(h)rasimund, a member of the Amals mentioned in 505

- Aiodingus, comes domesticorum in 479 and his nephew Sidimund were both from Amal dynasty

- Andela, his son Andagis who fought in the battle of Catalan fields in 451 and Guntigis-Baza, who Jordanes served under in 535 were members of the Amal dynasty. Guntigis Baza's mother is also known, a sister of Candac either an Alan or a Scirian.
Last edited by Abaçı; 8 May @ 2:04pm
Abaçı 7 May @ 5:11pm 
Some Burgundians:

Hariulf, a member of the protector domesticus who belonged to Burgundian royal family and died at the age of 20 (and 9 months 9 days) most likely during the reign of Valentinian I. He is known through his tombstone dedicated by his uncle Reutilo which also gives the name of Hariulf's father, Hanhavald.


I'll update this with some information on the main line later but I don't have much on them so will probably only update once.
Last edited by Abaçı; 7 May @ 5:12pm
Abaçı 8 May @ 4:04am 
This should be all I have on the Balthes, again these are based on vanilla so there are bound to be some of them that you have already done. Again, mostly taken from PLRE and Herwig Wolfram.

- Pelagia, second wife of Aetius. Same Pelagia as in the Amal post, she was of a "barbarian" royal dynasty with two fathers I have seen proposed are Berimund of the Amals and Alaric of the Balthes.

- Ariaric father of Aoric. Ariaric died between 332-340

- Evochilde, claimed to be a wife of Odovacer (should be first wife) and mother of a daughter named after her. Daughter of Eurich and Ragnachildis/Ragnagildis of the Burgundian royal family.

- Unnamed mother of Ricimer, she is daughter of Wallia and her mother was possibly a daughter of Magister Militum (and consul of 384) Richomer and his wife Ascyla/Ascylla

- Theodosius or possibly Theodoridus, son of Athaulf and Galla Placidia(second wife), born late 414 or early 415 and died before 15 August 415 Galla Placidia and Athaulf may also had a daughter (born 414, parents married in January 414). Given as a possible wife for Gundioc so either mistaken with Ricimer's sister or Gundioc had more than one wives.

- Athaulf's first wife, possibly sister of Alaric of Balthes. Athaulf's children with his first wife whose names and genders are not known, possibly 6 in total (6 of his children were murdered after his death), one of them could be the mother of Gundioc because he claims descent from Athanarich.

- Himnerith, Frideric and Retemer/Ricimer, sons of Theoderic I of Balthes. An unnamed daughter who was married to Huneric of the Hasdingi Vandals, she was mutilated and was sent back to her father before 442. Although a child is not explicitly stated, she must have had at least one child with Hunerich because Hunerich's son Hilderich had nephews and Huneric and his second wife Eudoxia is only known to have Hilderich as a child. Another unnamed daughter was wife of Rechiar of the Suebi

- Freda, a noblewoman from Balthes known through a letter dated to 485-597

- Fretimundo, an ambassador to Suebi in 537, thought to be a member of the Balthes

- Eustere(Eusteria?), daughter of Alaric II and "Theudicote Ostrogothia", should be Theudigotha daughter of Theoderic the Great of Amals.
Abaçı 8 May @ 4:19am 
Family of Empress Aelia Eudoxia:

- Her father Baudo/Bauton, a consul, possibly belonged to the Chamavi/Hamavi tribe of Germans which later merged with the Franks and a son or brother (or both if two seperate persons) of Nebigast.

- Nebigast either two seperate persons, king Nebigast and prince Nebigast, father and son or a single person confused to be two persons.

- Magister Militum Arbogast(Died 8 September 394) who was a son of a sister of Magister Militum and consul of 384 Richomer. Arbogast was either the son of Baudo and therfore a brother of Aelia Eudoxia who would also be daughter of Richomer's sister or the son of Nebigast and possibly cousin of Aelia Eudoxia.

- Nebigast, a supporter of Constantine III who died in battle in 414, thought to be related to Nebigast of the Hamavi due to his name.

- Arigius, father of Arbogast Komes of Trier in 471 (died after 480). Arbogast and his father are thought to be descendants of Magister Militum Arbogast.
Abaçı 8 May @ 4:52am 
Hasdingi Vandals, almost all coming from PLRE and Herwig Wolfram:

- Godegisel had a daughter

- Hunerich had at least one other child beside Hilderic as Hilderic is known to have at least two nephews, Euagees/Hoagis and Hoamer. As mentioned in the previous post the parent(s) of his nephews must be from Huneric's first marriage to the daughter of Theoderic of Balthes as Eudoxia and Huneric are not known to have had another child beside Hilderic. Euagees had at least one child, a daughter named Damira who died at the age of 4.

- Hilderic had children and grandchildren(perhaps they had descendants as well), their names and genders are not known. He is given one named daughter, Hildis the mother of Halfdan the Old but this is legend.

- During Hunerich's reign, his brother Theoderic had four children. An adult son, two daughters and a younger son perhaps an infant. Huneric murdered the adult son and Theoderic's mother and exiled the rest.

- Geiseric possibly also had daughter(s) besides his sons.

- Gento/Geiso's eldest son Godagis was banished alongside his wife by Huneric. His other missing son Gunthamund became king in 484 but succumbed to an illnes in 486.

- Thrasamund possibly had a daughter, Amfleda and a son, Fridamal with his marriage to Amalafrida of the Amal dynasty. I can't recall the source on this but was possibly not Herwif Wolfram and PLRE.

- Gelaris/Geliar had a daughter whose name is not known and she had a son whose name is not known. Possibly not an adult in 533. His missing son, Ammata, died in battle against Belisarius in 13 September 533

- Gelimer had a daughter. Although Herwig Wolfram gives him a daughter in his stemma, I couldn't find any mention of her, this may also be a speculative daughter given to him due to his notable absence of any sons. After his surrender, Gelimer settled to estates in Galatia Justinian gave him along with his surviving nephews and cousins so he has cousins in this time though their genders and parentage is not given. One nephew is an unnamed son of his sister as mentioned above and other nephews are thought to be sons of his brother Tzazo.
Abaçı 8 May @ 12:31pm 
Family of Areobindus, these come almost entirely from PLRE:

- Areobindus, consul of 434 and Magister Militum possibly had a sister who was married to a roman. There is an Areobindas Martialis, Magister officiorum in 449 that PLRE suggests was probably a nephew of Areobindus through a sister and a Roman man.

- Wife of Areobindus consul of 434's wife was (possibly) a great granddaughter of Dagalaifus the Consul of 366.

- Areobindus Dagalaifus Areobindus consul of 506 (son of Dagalaifus consul of 461 son of Areobindus consul of 434) possibly had another marriage before marrying to Anicia Iuliana. A certain Dagalaifus who was the father of Areobindus who married to Praeicta the niece of Justinian is thought to be his son and not with Anicia Iuliana but from an earlier marriage. Praeicta's daughter Praeicta is also thought to be from this marriage. This Dagalaifus, father-in-law of Praeicta, also has a daughter of whom nothing is known.

- Germanus, nephew of Justin I somehow belonged to the Anicii. Although it is not known, one theory is that his mother was a daughter of Anicia Iuliana, therefore a daughter of Areobindus Dagalaifus Areobindus (this doesn't come from PLRE, can't remember source). They also possibly had a second son, Areobindus.

- There's an Areobindus who must certainly have been related, that was Praefectus Urbi of Constantantinople before 553 and Praetiroan Praefect of Orient in 553. He was possibly identical to Areobindos envoy to Persia and related (or identical).

- An Areobindos perhaps also related, a Commerciaris in mid 6th, early 7th century who buried his nephew in Jerusalem.

- Final, most interesting one. There's an 11th century seal that is read as Leon Areobindos. There's ofcourse another, related Areobindos from the family of Anastasius so he may be the ancestor as well.

https://pbw2016.kdl.kcl.ac.uk/person/154122/
Abaçı 8 May @ 12:47pm 
On Ariadne and Patrician Diogenianus: I considered adding him as a brother to Diogenianus is possibly young to be placed as a nephew of Basiliscus and Aelia Verina but Diogenianus seems young to be a son of Zuzus, Ariadne having already died in 515 due to old age and Iulius Nepos marrying his wife before 473 and I guess another nephew would've been noted unless he was perhaps too young to have been of any notice but it gave me an idea of adding either a niece or a younger nephew as a parent of Diogenianus.
Last edited by Abaçı; 8 May @ 2:01pm
Abaçı 8 May @ 1:12pm 
Some Huns:

Uldın/Uldız is claimed as possibly being son of Vadamerca.

Aybars was a brother of Oktar, therefore an uncle of Attila, he never ruled so would possibly much younger than his brothers.

If all three Odovacers are identical then he should be son of Rona/Rua/Rugila.


To my knowledge there is nothing to suggest Attila was on bad terms with his uncle Rua/Rona/Rugila but on the other hand he murdered his brother Bleda. Considering Atakam and Mamas the Hunnic princes who were murdered by Attila were young and defected to Romans, it would make more sense making them sons of Bleda instead of Rua. The two brothers Emnetzur and Ultzindur on the other hand were still around almost two decades after Bleda's death so would make more sense not making them Bleda's sons. Attila's uncle Aybars who was still alive in 448 and held in great honor, is a better candidate.

Two members of the Hunnic royal family, perhaps brothers, Kursık and Basık. They lead an invasion of Persia in 395. As they seem to be older than the generation of Attila's uncles, Baltazar and Karaton are good candidates to be their parent.
Abaçı 9 May @ 10:35am 
Magnus Maximus: I won't delve into his descendants etc. since these stuff are mostly legend with perhaps the exception of relation to some later emperors.

All of the below from PLRE with exception of Victor.

Magnus Maximus was born in Spain in estates of Komes Theodosius (father of Emperor Theodosius) and he claimed to be related to him, since he was contemporary of Emperor Theodosius and was emperor around the same time and Theodosius died long after him so this claim appears possible, I notice you have renamed his dynasty to Theodosius so you possibly intended on the connection as well. Although there is no certain information on it, Eucherius, uncle of Theodosius (emperor) is suggested as the father of Magnus Maximus.

He had at least one brother, Marcellinus who commanded his armies in 388 (no mention after as far as I could find). A second brother is mentioned but it is much later and appears to be fiction.

He possibly had a sister.

Although I couldn't find a mention of it anywhere, his son Victor appears to be two seperate persons, he is said to be the eldest of his sons (although this perhaps comes from legend, not sure) and said to be fighting, however PLRE says Victor is crowned as co-emperor shortly after his birth so if these statements are all true then it must mean Victor is not a single person. Perhaps a father, son of Magnus Maximus and a son of the Victor.
Last edited by Abaçı; 9 May @ 10:38am
Symmachus  [developer] 9 May @ 3:11pm 
Originally posted by Abaçı:
Magnus Maximus: I won't delve into his descendants etc. since these stuff are mostly legend with perhaps the exception of relation to some later emperors.

All of the below from PLRE with exception of Victor.

Magnus Maximus was born in Spain in estates of Komes Theodosius (father of Emperor Theodosius) and he claimed to be related to him, since he was contemporary of Emperor Theodosius and was emperor around the same time and Theodosius died long after him so this claim appears possible, I notice you have renamed his dynasty to Theodosius so you possibly intended on the connection as well. Although there is no certain information on it, Eucherius, uncle of Theodosius (emperor) is suggested as the father of Magnus Maximus.

He had at least one brother, Marcellinus who commanded his armies in 388 (no mention after as far as I could find). A second brother is mentioned but it is much later and appears to be fiction.

He possibly had a sister.

Although I couldn't find a mention of it anywhere, his son Victor appears to be two seperate persons, he is said to be the eldest of his sons (although this perhaps comes from legend, not sure) and said to be fighting, however PLRE says Victor is crowned as co-emperor shortly after his birth so if these statements are all true then it must mean Victor is not a single person. Perhaps a father, son of Magnus Maximus and a son of the Victor.
It is pretty unlikely that Theodosius and Maximus were related in the male line. Their immediate families used completely different sets of names. In addition, if Eucherius was in fact Maximus' father, we would expect to hear something about him in relation to his son's reign. According to Settipani, Theodosius and Maximus were related by marriage, however, he believes that this relationship cannot be traced. Yeah, LT-Rascek called this dynasty Theodosius, but I would like to rename it either to Magnus or Maximus.
I'm also planning to separate Magnus Maximus from his legendary British "family". Even if we have to keep some legendary characters, I do not want to connect them to the historical people.
I believe that Victor's description as an infant is simply an error. Victor's coins clearly depict him as an adult man.
Abaçı 9 May @ 3:43pm 
Originally posted by Symmachus:
It is pretty unlikely that Theodosius and Maximus were related in the male line. Their immediate families used completely different sets of names. In addition, if Eucherius was in fact Maximus' father, we would expect to hear something about him in relation to his son's reign. According to Settipani, Theodosius and Maximus were related by marriage, however, he believes that this relationship cannot be traced. Yeah, LT-Rascek called this dynasty Theodosius, but I would like to rename it either to Magnus or Maximus.
I'm also planning to separate Magnus Maximus from his legendary British "family". Even if we have to keep some legendary characters, I do not want to connect them to the historical people.
I believe that Victor's description as an infant is simply an error. Victor's coins clearly depict him as an adult man.

Eucherius is suggested most likely because only three members before Theodosius' generation is known, Theodosius' father, his uncle Eucherius and the grandfather of Theodosius named Honorius (not certain on this one). Theodosius not disputing the kinship suggests they were related somehow and he was born in their estates. Now that I read my notes again it is said his paternal uncle is mentioned (no details given) so yes, they must most likely not have been children of Eucherius.

Two other things that I have missed that I noticed after looking at my notes are that his mother was still alive after his death and he had a daughter although no names given for either.
Last edited by Abaçı; 9 May @ 3:45pm
Abaçı 9 May @ 8:05pm 
About the descendants Christian Settipani gives to Maximus (consul 523) : Although I couldn't find much on them and anything to actually connect them to the consul, they are mentioned in Pope Gregory the Great's Dialogues which were written in 593

Probus, his uncle Probus the Bishop of Rieti/Reate/Reatino, Maximus the father of Bishop of Rieti. A note here, some other versions give the name Maximus to not the father of Bishop of Rieti but his nephew Probus and make the little child his father.


"On this subject I must tell you what I heard from
the servant of God, Probus, who now presides over the
monastery of St. Renatus here at Rome. He used to tell me
of his uncle, Bishop Probus of Rieti, who was overtaken by
a servere illness toward the end of his life. His father
Maximus, in an attempt to find a cure for him, sent his
servants out to the neighboring districts to summon doctors.
They came and gathered round the bed of the sick bishop.
After taking his pulse, they concluded that death was im-
minent. Since it was growing late and was nearly time for
the evening meal, the bishop felt concern for the doctors. In
fact, he was more solicitous for their welfare than for his
own. So he had them accompany his aged father to the upper
story of the episcopal residence to refresh themselves after
their labor.
They did so, leaving only one little boy behind with the
bishop. This lad, Probus tells me, is still alive. While he was
watching at the bedside of the sick bishop, he suddently saw
some men in white robes approaching. The brilliance of their
countenance far surpassed the splendor of their garments.
Dazzled by the brightness of the vision, the boy began to ask
in a loud, excited voice who these men were. Awakened by
his voice the bishop, too, looked up to see the visitors and,
recognizing immediately who they were, tried to calm the
boy, who by this time was sobbing and shaking with fear.
'Don'ts be afraid, my boy,' he said. 'The two martyrs, St.
Juvenal and St. Eleutherius, are paying me a visit.'
But the boy ran from the room as fast as he could, overcome with terror at the unusual sight, and told his father
and the doctors what he had seen. They came down at once
to see for themselves and found the bishop already dead. The
holy martyrs, at whose sight the boy had been so frightened,
had taken his soul with them"

Musa is also mentioned, as little sister of Probus (the nephew) and she died as a child

"I will also include the story Probus told me about
his little sister Musa...."

Another relative:

"On the other hand, there was Chrysaorius. Probus, his
kinsman, whom I mentioned before, used to tell me about
him. Chrysaorius was very rich in this world's goods, but
his vices were as abundant as his possessions. He was proud
and conceited, a slave to the lusts of the flesh, and burning
with avarice to amass more wealth. Now, when the Lord
decreed to make an end of all these evils, He struck him
with a disease that caused his death.A short time before
he died, however, he saw hideous spirits standing before
him, threatening fiercely to carry him to the depths of hell.
Pale with terror, trembling and perspiring, he finally burst
out in a cry of anguish and begged for a few moments of
grace. Then, with a loud, excited voice he called for his
son Maximus, a monk whom I met after I myself had become
a monk. 'Maximus,' he called, 'come quickly! I never did
you any wrong. I entrust myself to your care. Take me!'
Last edited by Abaçı; 9 May @ 8:31pm
Abaçı 11 May @ 1:03pm 
I have already posted most of the stuff I have on the Anicii, may gather them up in a single post later with the little I haven't added but in the meantime Anicia Iuliana should start with a huge amount of gold, she was one of the wealthiest, perhaps the wealthiest person in Constantinople court. This would currently have little impact as she is unlanded but with the features of the new DLC it would. She should also possibly have high learning as her patronage of the arts could possibly represented as councillor spouse's patronage tasks which gives the description "X focuses on matters of culture, religion and education".
Last edited by Abaçı; 11 May @ 3:28pm
Abaçı 11 May @ 2:44pm 
Ardabur and Plinta,

Plinta, the magister militum praesentalis and Consul (419?) most likely of Gothic origin was related to Ardabur family, exact nature of the relation is not known but both of the suggestions I saw make it through marriage, one makes him maternal grandfather of Ardabur Iunior and the other make him the maternal grandfather of his father, Aspar. Armatius, a Dux or Comes Rei Militaris in Libya who died due to an illness in 449 was his son. Besides possibly having a daughter who married to Ardabur family, he possibly had a second daughter, because two versions I've read on the wife of Constantius the secretary of Attila both relate her to Plinta, one as his daughter and the other as the widow of his son Armatius.

Ardabur, Magister Militum and Consul of 427 was an Alan.
His son Aspar consul of is called as both an Alan and a Goth by different people so Plinta's daughter being his mother is perhaps the better choice. Aspar had three sons and at least two daughters from three seperate marriages although only one wife is known for certain, a sister (or perhaps paternal aunt) of Theoderic Strabo.

Eldest son of Aspar, Ardabur, was Praetor in 434, consul of 447 and and was still a child at the time, died in 471 revolt. His only known child, Godisthea, was the daughter of Anthousa, daughter of Sabinus Antiochus Damonicus who commanded the border troops in Thebaid and died in battle (drowned when instead of surrendering jumped to water in armor) in 468.

Aspar's second son Iulius Patricius was possibly born c. 445, his marriage to was annulled due to him being an Arian. Unlike his father and elder brother Aspar, he possibly survived
the 471 revolt.

Hermeneric, Aspar's youngest son was not in Constantinople at the time so survived the 471 revolt, he is also said to be rescued by Zeno. He married to a granddaughter of Zeno, said to be through an illegitimate daughter which may be his son with Arcadia, Zeno, who died young. This marriage must have taken place before 476 since he is said to be rescued by Zeno and Hermeneric later returned to Constantinople which must be after Zeno won.

There is an Aspar Alypius Konstantinus, Praetorian Prefect of Orient in 502 who could be about the right age to be a grandson of Aspar. His name is rather curious considering a few things:

His name suggests relation to Aspar
Iulius Patricius is said in some sources to be wounded in 471 but survived.
Iulius Patricius' previous marriage was to a member of the imperial family born to a ruling emperor no less and was annulled due to him being an Arian.
Another imperial daughter, Alypia, daughter of Emperor Anthemius who was distantly related to Constantinian dynasty is widowed about a year after this and her husband Ricimer was an Arian so her marriage to an Arian was not a problem.

However, as previously said there is no mention of such a connection at all but I do wonder if Christian Settipani has made anything on it because from what I can tell he relies heavily on onomastics when making speculations and this is right up his alley.
I think he must have been a grandson of Aspar, perhaps through one of the daughters.
Last edited by Abaçı; 11 May @ 3:52pm
Abaçı 12 May @ 12:36am 
Aetius, Stilicho and Tatulus:

It is not certain whether if Aetius had a daguhter but if he did, She should have Thraustila as a husband. I don't have anything on the fate of Gaudentius, his son, after being brought back to Africa, he was possibly alive considering some Gaiseric claimed for some of his attacks that they were to claim Gaudentius' legacy and although he wasn't exactly a small child when he was brought to Africa, he must have stayed there a long time if he returned at all so if there is a hybrid Roman culture like some others have, perhaps he can be given that. He should probably not start at the court of Theoderic either unless there is something I don't know of.

Stilicho should possibly be Roman by birth (currently born a Vandal) His father was a Vandal cavalry officer however his mother was a Roman. He can perhaps be given fictional parents to reflect that.

Tatulus and his sons Paulus and Oresters are currently Romano-Pannonians. They were indeed from Pannonia but I couldn't find anything on them being Pannonians and only reference to their origin I could find claimed Tatulus was a Goth.
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