I'm currently working on remaking the whole mod to make it more efficient and configurable (the way I'm pairing pedestals with ghost items isn't the greatest, and there are certain things I could do with better organization and performance - I kind of let the mod's code grow as I implemented stuff like EID support while not addressing some glaring issues that are also causing some bugs)

One suggestion I received which I'm not super excited about is simply spawning a collectible near the initial one, instead of having ghost items - this way, you could similarly pick which Lazarus gets which, or even take both with one of them. And to me, it feels a bit off - it's a basic doubling of items which could work but feels more like "hey this character is a bit on the weak side let's give them double items" than "hey let's make an unique mechanic for this character".

Your suggestion is similar to that one in terms of results, but certainly superior flavor-wise - you get to keep the whole mirror items thing! Also, making flipping just not affect the items and having the ghosts automatically move to the pedestal when it's empty would be do-able and I'll try to fit that in as an option, at the very least. Still, it feels really close to the previous one, with the only difference being that you can't choose to only take the mirror item, since you must take the two in order.

I'm also not sure how it would end up behaving for greed mode/restocked shops. I'm guessing mirror items would simply not spawn for those, since there wouldn't really be a way to have the item descend, as the pedestal would never become empty.

I've also been interested in doing something with item quality, so I might end up making them match by default - I was also thinking of having Tainted Lazarus's birthright effect make the mirror item quality higher.

The thing is that what I want to ideally do by default is encourage spreading the items between the characters somewhat evenly, while also offering the option to stack more items on one character, but have that be more difficult/convoluted to pull off. So there's a decent chance that the default mechanics will remain similar to the way they are (currently, you can stack them by taking an item, flipping, then completing a room/recharging flip then returning to the item).

Another suggestion I saw was that picking an item up would automatically flip you after that - it would make it so you can always get double items, but need to use your active to stack them on a character (rather than currently always getting one item, but being able to Flip to get two).

In the end, there are a ton of ways to go about this mechanic and in I wish to make it as configurable as possible, since there are some settings I prefer but I'm no game designer and what I consider balanced might not be the norm.

Originally posted by Manualul Tancului:

The thing is that what I want to ideally do by default is encourage spreading the items between the characters somewhat evenly, while also offering the option to stack more items on one character, but have that be more difficult/convoluted to pull off. So there's a decent chance that the default mechanics will remain similar to the way they are (currently, you can stack them by taking an item, flipping, then completing a room/recharging flip then returning to the item).

I think this is something that is best left to the player's agency to decide, like I say if they don't try to balance the items out they'll be screwing themselves over, but it's best to have the player's choice. As for the latter option it's definitely doable but just limited. Either way it's good to know that you are continuing development on making this mod more customizable and varied. Cheers!

Soo, I added more config options that should be able to replicate some of the behavior you are suggesting.

If you set the item pickup flip mode to 2, and the normal flip mode to 3, Flip will not do anything to item pedestals, but picking up an item will cause the other to descend (however, it will currently also automatically Flip you, so you must use the active to stack items on the same character).

I will add a config option to automatically descend mirror items next.

Yeah I noticed. Really glad to see that you're going for a modular approach for this mod, letting people test out what they enjoy from the mod.

I really enjoy chaos mode tbh, might just stick with it, it's really really fun

I feel like a good compromise between Alex and Manualul's suggestions would be to have it so that when the mirror item descends, it is still in it's ghost format and that it can only be taken after flipping. So you can choose to flip in order to give one character a certain item (the default item of the room) but this will then mean that the second item is lost to the other character (as you have no more flip charge and it disappears once you leave). Or simply the player takes the item with their current character, the mirror item then descends and after that they flip in order to be able to pick up the ghost item with the other character.

Food for thought :)

I haven't found a configuration yet for this that really feels spot on. It's either still limiting the use too much or makes it too easy to get every flipped item. It also makes you a lot less likely to use Flip for combat purposes because you always want to have it ready for an opportunity to get an extra item, which kinda goes against what the item was originally designed for.

Perhaps one way to go about this is to make it possible to save up more Flip charges by default than a single Flip takes. For example by allowing the item to charge up to 12 bars, but flipping only uses up 4 charges (or a configurable amount, since it probably needs to be tested for balancing). And with The Battery, you could effectively save up to 6 consecutive Flips, given enough rooms to charge it. One motivation for storing more charges by default is to make the mechanic more suitable for Greed mode, where it's generally discouraged to pause in between waves in order to not waste charges.
With regards to the "Recharge Flip upon taking an item" option, you could maybe make it configurable how many charges it gives you instead of always charging up to max.

I am really curious how an official rework of Tainted Laz is going to tackle the issue.

As for Car Battery, perhaps it would be possible to have it enable the "Chaos Flip" mechanic for the current room instead of double-flipping? That way you could get something meaningful out of it.

You can literally choose the item by flipping outside of the item room, but you will need another charge for flip because of that.

Or you can just beat one room and flip automatically, while the item doesn't flip. I don't see the problem.